As Kelly and I were sitting on our couch watching Batman on the Kid’s WB (yes, I proudly still watch cartoons!), there was a knock on our door. I answered it to find 2 missionaries from our town’s Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Now, when Kelly and I were living in Indiana, we invited a pair of missionaries into our home to discuss the Mormon faith. Those missionaries were very personable, fairly humble and wanted to talk to us. But we got them off script with some of our questions (not mean ones, genuine curiosity questions) and were told more than once that we were diving ahead into later visits and they could not share those answers with us yet. We looked forward to more visits to just discuss with these two gentlemen, but after about 2 months, they were shipped elsewhere.
The two missionaries I talked with this morning were much more confident in what they were sharing, but were a bit… rude. This could be because they had found out that I am a youth pastor at the church across the street from them. But in any event, the entire visit played out like a group of kindergartners trying to push an 18-wheeler out of a snowbank. It went nowhere.
I was invited to share my reservations about the Mormon faith, and instead of discussion, I was handed circular logic, misinterpretations of Scripture, and attitude. Now, I am no expert in the Mormon faith, but I am not uninformed either. And I do enjoy intelligent, civil discussion and debate when conversing with people who ascribe to a faith that is different than my own. But today was my day off, I was interrupted from what I was doing, had my faith and my connection to Christ questioned, and was flat-out insulted because God has not told me that the Book of Mormon is Scripture.
I admire the commitment that the LDS has to evangelism. I wish that the Church would show such enthusiasm for sharing their faith. What I saw this morning was simply pathetic. I was placed on the defensive almost immediately, there was no real attempt to get to know me as a person, or where I was coming from outside the fact that I am a Youth Pastor, and my intelligence itself was insulted more than once. And to top it all off, my questions were never answered, merely danced around. Questions such as:
- Scripture (from the Bible) was all written by humans under the inspiration of God. Why would God write Scripture on gold tablets to be merely found by a human? There is no precedent for it anywhere in Scripture, save for the giving of the 10 Commandments to Moses.
- Jesus came as a Jew to the world. His ministry was first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, so why would He appear centuries after His death and resurrection on American shores as a White Man to the Native Americans? This would have been the second coming, and would dictate a third coming which is not pointed to anywhere in Scripture.
- Why would God go outside His character to give man revelation, then take it away? The Ark of the Covenant was brought up in this answer, but the Ark was not taken back by God directly. Jesus came and was taken away, yes, but He had a very specific mission that He accomplished before leaving.
- Jesus came to complete the law, and fulfilled the roles of Prophet, Priest and King. These 3 roles were completed in His person. The gift of prophecy is still active, but the role is not. There is only one King. The priesthood is now shared by all believers. And the role of prophet itself was not filled by one man for the world at a time. There were typically more than one active, so why does the LDS follow only have one prophet, and are you trying to win me to Christ or to this prophet?
- Probably my favorite: If my faith would be non-existent if you could show me these gold tablets the Book of Mormon was written on, why are you making the argument that Jesus came to American shores to prove Himself to the people here, and showed Himself to 1st Century Middle East. Where is their faith as a result then, based upon your argument to avoid my question?
- Is this type of mission work really effective at all?
- And why can I not get a straight, intelligent answer to any of these questions?
If you are reading this and would like to dialogue, please leave a comment. But please remember that I strive for calm, intelligent discussion, not a shouting match about whose God is bigger.
Filed under: Discussion, Evangelism, Ministry, Theology
Hi, be patient, The answers are there.
Missionaries have a different agenda….a spiritual one not a social one.
Perhaps engage with a young post missionary couple who can identify with your situation & questions
thanks Jeff
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff.
Just for clarification, by young post missionary couple, do you mean a different set of missionaries? or a couple who used to serve as missionaries?
Thank you for your comments, they were very fair. I am a former Mormon missionary and apologize for the behavior of my brethren. If the missionary’s knew you where a youth pastor they may have adopted a combative tone for that reason. Hostel encounter with clergy is a common experience for missionary’s and can taint later interactions with members of a ministerial profession. Also, they may just have been having a bad day, or maybe they really are jerks, or any number of reasons. Whatever the cause, I regret their unprofessional and un Christ like behavior.
I would be happy to engage in dialogue on Mormon issues with you, and will attempt to answer the questions listed.
Scripture (from the Bible) was all written by humans under the inspiration of God. Why would God write Scripture on gold tablets to be merely found by a human? There is no precedent for it anywhere in Scripture, save for the giving of the 10 Commandments to Moses.
More accurately ( in terms of mainstream LDS belief), the Book of Mormon is scripture written by men called of God to do so. Mormons do not believe it was written or inscribed directly by God, after the manner of the Ten Commandments given to Moses. While there is no direct biblical precedent for the hiding up of a sacred records in the earth, the Jewish people of Qumran did hid their copy’s of scripture in caves to preserve them, similar to what was done with the Book of Mormon. Also Joseph Smith didn’t just find the record, he was lead to it by an angel.
Jesus came as a Jew to the world. His ministry was first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, so why would He appear centuries after His death and resurrection on American shores as a White Man to the Native Americans? This would have been the second coming, and would dictate a third coming which is not pointed to anywhere in Scripture.
The people in North America Jesus appeared to in the Book of Mormon were of Israelite blood, being the decedents of a group that fled Jerusalem shortly before the Babylon invasion. As such Jesus was simply visiting another branch of the chosen people to whom he was prophesied to come. Jesus visitation to the America’s occurred shortly after his resurrection, not century’s after. The belief that Jesus was a “White Man”, meaning European looking, during his visit to the America’s is most likely some kind of misunderstanding of scripture, I’d have to look into it. Jesus visit to the America’s no more makes his reappearing at the end of days a “third coming” then does his initial resurrection, or his appearance to Saul.
Why would God go outside His character to give man revelation, then take it away? The Ark of the Covenant was brought up in this answer, but the Ark was not taken back by God directly. Jesus came and was taken away, yes, but He had a very specific mission that He accomplished before leaving.
As a test of faith. Also I’ve never thought of it as being out of character, God may not have done the same with the Ark of the Covenant at first, but later when it was placed in the Holy of Holy’s it was essentially taken away from the people, and later diapered from history altogether, though some of course have theories as to where it went.
Jesus came to complete the law, and fulfilled the roles of Prophet, Priest and King. These 3 roles were completed in His person. The gift of prophecy is still active, but the role is not. There is only one King. The priesthood is now shared by all believers. And the role of prophet itself was not filled by one man for the world at a time. There were typically more than one active, so why does the LDS follow only have one prophet, and are you trying to win me to Christ or to this prophet?
These are differences of theological interpretation. Mormons believe in a linear priesthood on the Old Testament model which they feel is validated in the New Testament through Christ’s anointing of Twelve Apostils, a divinely sanctioned priesthood office. ‘The Prophet’ is an affectionate title for the president of the Church, but his councilors and the Quorum of the Twelve are also ordained to prophetic office (as are others in a more limited and indirect way). The President of the Church is the presiding Apostle or Prophet, and governs much as Peter did in the New Testament Church, a kind of first among equals. In this case one is singled out largely for purposes of order and to avoid a profusion of false beliefs (not always successfully). We’re trying to win people to Christ, and view ’The Prophet’ as his authorized mouthpiece.
Probably my favorite: If my faith would be non-existent if you could show me these gold tablets the Book of Mormon was written on, why are you making the argument that Jesus came to American shores to prove Himself to the people here, and showed Himself to 1st Century Middle East. Where is their faith as a result then, based upon your argument to avoid my question?
I’m afraid I don’t fully understand your questions here, though elements of it were addressed above.
Is this type of mission work really effective at all?
Argumentative proselytizing is seldom effective. Door-to-door tracting is also not very effective, and done largely as time filler when missionary’s lack appointments or other more effective things to do.
And why can I not get a straight, intelligent answer to any of these questions?
A frustration I share, though not on these so much as other questions. Many Mormons are overly cautious or vague when expounding doctrine, do in part to a fear of being attacked for there beliefs, and also because a lot of Mormon doctrine builds upon other doctrine. This means that some Mormon beliefs don’t make a lot of sense with out an understanding of other related doctrine. When the “deeper” doctrine is conveyed without a grounding in the supporting doctrine, it may seem absurd and lead one to reject the whole of the belief system. It’s kind of like with math, algebra, with its letters in place of numbers, may seem like frustrating nonsense to someone still learning addition and subtraction.
I hope this helps. Let me know any additional questions you may have, or anything I could clear up better that was presented here. I’m not really the pressure converting type, I just enjoying explaining.
Thank you for some well-thought out answers Nate. I would love to continue further dialogue with you, and perhaps after my busy weekend is over, we can continue…
I would be delighted to engage in a polite, civil, and friendly discussion with you. I was once a LDS missionary, and because of and since that time I have learned much about how to better dialogue with those of other faiths. Please feel free to email me.
James
I am told that a leader of the Church once said that if the Church were not true, the youthfulness of the missionaries would have destroyed it long ago. I believe that God has his hand in our missionary work (I was a missionary once), but it doesn’t mean we always get it right.
We are not perfect, but I am glad that you have also had good experiences with our favorite representatives. Hopefully your experiences will prove instructive in our future efforts to improve our quality of teaching and fellowshipping and our humble attempt to bring a greater knowledge of Jesus Christ’s gospel to the world.
I admire your open mind and open door.
These may be hard questions for the missionaries you encountered, but I hope they would be easy questions for Mormons with a bit more experience (and who don’t have an agenda). I’m LDS and could easily answer your questions, mostly in a similar vein to NateDredge above. However, there are much more difficult questions you could ask that I couldn’t answer, which pose great difficulty to my faith.
While I admire the time and effort the Mormons put into spreading their word, I can tell you that my last 3 experiences with them have been less than acceptable.
2 years ago, while opening Christmas presents with my children, I received a knock on my door. 2 Mormon ladies were standing there asking me if they could share a word with me. I replied that “I am celebrating the birth of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ”. They asked me if I’d read the book of Mormon, I told them no and that I simply didn’t have time for this discussion on Christmas day. They continued to push me and eventually, I was forced to close the door on them as I wished them a Merry Christmas.
Last year, while attempting to sell my house (which was vacant), I went over there to make sure toilet lids were closed, etc… I found literature from LSD scattered throughout. I am a Christian, not a Mormon and did not appreciate the information being left in the home I was trying to sell. I was supposed to rid my home of any “personal” effects and yet someone else had left theirs.
After I sold my home and moved in with my Mom, she heard a very loud banging on the door at about 8:30pm. When my Mom opened the door, there were 2 Mormons there. She said one smelled like he’d just left the bar. She told them that she thought it was a bit late to be knocking door to door so loudly and was told “God told us to knock on doors until 9pm”. She told them that God apparently didn’t tell them that He didn’t mean her house and closed the door on them.
IF there were true golden tablets, why aren’t there any pictures to prove so? Wouldn’t these pictures give some credence to the Mormon faith? There are many, many accounts of Jesus from different cultures and religions – including Islam! While we don’t have any physical pictures, unless you believe in the Shroud of Turin, we do have numerous accounts of his physical existence. The Mormon tablets are allegedly housed somewhere – why not make them public?
I am proud to be a Christian and don’t hesitate to share my faith. I do not however knock on doors at nearly 9pm smelling like booze, nor would I go to a Jewish home during Passover. To me, actions such as these are simply disrespectful and don’t truly spread the word you’re attemting to share.
http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/just-by-me-merely-observing/
Mormons definately are not Christians
… but where is the civil discourse that was encouraged at the end of this post?
Dr. Headly (I believe that is your name- I apologize I’m just not sure),
I really respect your civility towards the missionaries. I agree with most of the posts given. I served my mission in Vallejo, CA and I experienced a lot of hate and mistreatment because I was LDS saying false things about us. Many times throughout the day it was hard to stay non defensive and I think that is what you experienced with these missionaries unfortunately. I promise it was no disrespect to you but just a reaction to what they have been through. I think Nate answered your questions beautifully. There is much much more that can be added. I also agree that sometimes its hard to answer certain questions unless other doctrine is explained first. I have been in the church for 20 years and I still learn a ton. Really… once you get that testimony and that knowledge you can take a step back and look at the big picture and go “Wow! This really does make perfect sense!” I hope you continue to at least explore our faith. I really admire your good civil discourse and admire you for standing up to those who don’t practice it both mormons and non mormons alike. I have found that anti-mormons are hard to discuss with and thats why this conversation is a lot easier with you. If you have any questions or want to talk with me I would be very happy. I don’t know a ton but I enjoy the talk of faith by sincere questioners. Thanks!
I would like you to watch this very short video. The title may sound “combative,” but it’s not. It references Mormon and Muslim religions as well. Check it out:
@ Scott: I watched it with an open mind, and found it to be very combative. to assume that anyone whoa believes in a higher power to be delusional and completely incapable of irrational thought is highly insulting. the statistics that are used are highly bloated and exaggerated, and there was no proof given against Christianity outside of operating from the assumption that supernatual happenings (immaculate conception, miracles, resurrection) are fairy tales and impossible. miraculous physical healings through the power of prayer are not only possible, but i have borne witness to their happening.
while the presentation in the presentation may not be intended as harsh, it is indeed that which it claims not to be. it assumes we who believe are idiots who cannot rub two brain cells together to form a rational thought, and it assumes that a belief in life after death devalues human life. not true at all. if anything, Scripture places immense value on human life, with stiff penalties for devaluing it (the death penalty, for instance).
while i appreciate your apparent concern for my rationality and sanity, i fear that i will have to pass on being healed of my apparent delusion. there is just not enough evidence given to convince me to turn away…
Dr. Headly,
I came across this site today. Since the date is so old, I am not sure if you are still involved in your quest for more knowledge about the church. As a member of the LDS church, I would be happy to engage in a civil dialogue with you, if you are interested. I felt Nate did a fine job above in answering many of your questions, but if you still have concerns, please feel free to email me.
Dr. Headly
I’m not sure if you are still interested in answering any questions about the LDS Church…
I would be glad to give my answers and opinions on whatever concerns you may have.
I will tell you a good way to really know what our Church believes. You could look up the 13 Articles of Faith. They are pretty precise and simply written for others to understand what our core beliefs are.
I would also like to repeat a saying you may or may not be familiar with… You can’t judge the Church by its Members… an answer that most poeple are not very content with.. I still think it is a good one.
I am by no means perfect nor do I have an answer to every question. Some of my questions have taken years to find any answers to. And most are still unanswered. I guess that’s why they call it Faith.
I have a great respect for All Faiths. And I would love to better understand others’ Religious Beliefs as well.
Hope this helps you in some way to want to speak to more “Mormons” about any concerns. (including future Missionaries) Don’t let a few bad experiences spoil any meaningful discussions.