Hard Questions for the Mormon Church
As Kelly and I were sitting on our couch watching Batman on the Kid’s WB (yes, I proudly still watch cartoons!), there was a knock on our door. I answered it to find 2 missionaries from our town’s Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Now, when Kelly and I were living in Indiana, we invited a pair of missionaries into our home to discuss the Mormon faith. Those missionaries were very personable, fairly humble and wanted to talk to us. But we got them off script with some of our questions (not mean ones, genuine curiosity questions) and were told more than once that we were diving ahead into later visits and they could not share those answers with us yet. We looked forward to more visits to just discuss with these two gentlemen, but after about 2 months, they were shipped elsewhere.
The two missionaries I talked with this morning were much more confident in what they were sharing, but were a bit… rude. This could be because they had found out that I am a youth pastor at the church across the street from them. But in any event, the entire visit played out like a group of kindergartners trying to push an 18-wheeler out of a snowbank. It went nowhere.
I was invited to share my reservations about the Mormon faith, and instead of discussion, I was handed circular logic, misinterpretations of Scripture, and attitude. Now, I am no expert in the Mormon faith, but I am not uninformed either. And I do enjoy intelligent, civil discussion and debate when conversing with people who ascribe to a faith that is different than my own. But today was my day off, I was interrupted from what I was doing, had my faith and my connection to Christ questioned, and was flat-out insulted because God has not told me that the Book of Mormon is Scripture.
I admire the commitment that the LDS has to evangelism. I wish that the Church would show such enthusiasm for sharing their faith. What I saw this morning was simply pathetic. I was placed on the defensive almost immediately, there was no real attempt to get to know me as a person, or where I was coming from outside the fact that I am a Youth Pastor, and my intelligence itself was insulted more than once. And to top it all off, my questions were never answered, merely danced around. Questions such as:
- Scripture (from the Bible) was all written by humans under the inspiration of God. Why would God write Scripture on gold tablets to be merely found by a human? There is no precedent for it anywhere in Scripture, save for the giving of the 10 Commandments to Moses.
- Jesus came as a Jew to the world. His ministry was first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, so why would He appear centuries after His death and resurrection on American shores as a White Man to the Native Americans? This would have been the second coming, and would dictate a third coming which is not pointed to anywhere in Scripture.
- Why would God go outside His character to give man revelation, then take it away? The Ark of the Covenant was brought up in this answer, but the Ark was not taken back by God directly. Jesus came and was taken away, yes, but He had a very specific mission that He accomplished before leaving.
- Jesus came to complete the law, and fulfilled the roles of Prophet, Priest and King. These 3 roles were completed in His person. The gift of prophecy is still active, but the role is not. There is only one King. The priesthood is now shared by all believers. And the role of prophet itself was not filled by one man for the world at a time. There were typically more than one active, so why does the LDS follow only have one prophet, and are you trying to win me to Christ or to this prophet?
- Probably my favorite: If my faith would be non-existent if you could show me these gold tablets the Book of Mormon was written on, why are you making the argument that Jesus came to American shores to prove Himself to the people here, and showed Himself to 1st Century Middle East. Where is their faith as a result then, based upon your argument to avoid my question?
- Is this type of mission work really effective at all?
- And why can I not get a straight, intelligent answer to any of these questions?
If you are reading this and would like to dialogue, please leave a comment. But please remember that I strive for calm, intelligent discussion, not a shouting match about whose God is bigger.
Hi, be patient, The answers are there.
Missionaries have a different agenda….a spiritual one not a social one.
Perhaps engage with a young post missionary couple who can identify with your situation & questions
thanks Jeff
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff.
Just for clarification, by young post missionary couple, do you mean a different set of missionaries? or a couple who used to serve as missionaries?
Thank you for your comments, they were very fair. I am a former Mormon missionary and apologize for the behavior of my brethren. If the missionary’s knew you where a youth pastor they may have adopted a combative tone for that reason. Hostel encounter with clergy is a common experience for missionary’s and can taint later interactions with members of a ministerial profession. Also, they may just have been having a bad day, or maybe they really are jerks, or any number of reasons. Whatever the cause, I regret their unprofessional and un Christ like behavior.
I would be happy to engage in dialogue on Mormon issues with you, and will attempt to answer the questions listed.
Scripture (from the Bible) was all written by humans under the inspiration of God. Why would God write Scripture on gold tablets to be merely found by a human? There is no precedent for it anywhere in Scripture, save for the giving of the 10 Commandments to Moses.
More accurately ( in terms of mainstream LDS belief), the Book of Mormon is scripture written by men called of God to do so. Mormons do not believe it was written or inscribed directly by God, after the manner of the Ten Commandments given to Moses. While there is no direct biblical precedent for the hiding up of a sacred records in the earth, the Jewish people of Qumran did hid their copy’s of scripture in caves to preserve them, similar to what was done with the Book of Mormon. Also Joseph Smith didn’t just find the record, he was lead to it by an angel.
Jesus came as a Jew to the world. His ministry was first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, so why would He appear centuries after His death and resurrection on American shores as a White Man to the Native Americans? This would have been the second coming, and would dictate a third coming which is not pointed to anywhere in Scripture.
The people in North America Jesus appeared to in the Book of Mormon were of Israelite blood, being the decedents of a group that fled Jerusalem shortly before the Babylon invasion. As such Jesus was simply visiting another branch of the chosen people to whom he was prophesied to come. Jesus visitation to the America’s occurred shortly after his resurrection, not century’s after. The belief that Jesus was a “White Man”, meaning European looking, during his visit to the America’s is most likely some kind of misunderstanding of scripture, I’d have to look into it. Jesus visit to the America’s no more makes his reappearing at the end of days a “third coming” then does his initial resurrection, or his appearance to Saul.
Why would God go outside His character to give man revelation, then take it away? The Ark of the Covenant was brought up in this answer, but the Ark was not taken back by God directly. Jesus came and was taken away, yes, but He had a very specific mission that He accomplished before leaving.
As a test of faith. Also I’ve never thought of it as being out of character, God may not have done the same with the Ark of the Covenant at first, but later when it was placed in the Holy of Holy’s it was essentially taken away from the people, and later diapered from history altogether, though some of course have theories as to where it went.
Jesus came to complete the law, and fulfilled the roles of Prophet, Priest and King. These 3 roles were completed in His person. The gift of prophecy is still active, but the role is not. There is only one King. The priesthood is now shared by all believers. And the role of prophet itself was not filled by one man for the world at a time. There were typically more than one active, so why does the LDS follow only have one prophet, and are you trying to win me to Christ or to this prophet?
These are differences of theological interpretation. Mormons believe in a linear priesthood on the Old Testament model which they feel is validated in the New Testament through Christ’s anointing of Twelve Apostils, a divinely sanctioned priesthood office. ‘The Prophet’ is an affectionate title for the president of the Church, but his councilors and the Quorum of the Twelve are also ordained to prophetic office (as are others in a more limited and indirect way). The President of the Church is the presiding Apostle or Prophet, and governs much as Peter did in the New Testament Church, a kind of first among equals. In this case one is singled out largely for purposes of order and to avoid a profusion of false beliefs (not always successfully). We’re trying to win people to Christ, and view ’The Prophet’ as his authorized mouthpiece.
Probably my favorite: If my faith would be non-existent if you could show me these gold tablets the Book of Mormon was written on, why are you making the argument that Jesus came to American shores to prove Himself to the people here, and showed Himself to 1st Century Middle East. Where is their faith as a result then, based upon your argument to avoid my question?
I’m afraid I don’t fully understand your questions here, though elements of it were addressed above.
Is this type of mission work really effective at all?
Argumentative proselytizing is seldom effective. Door-to-door tracting is also not very effective, and done largely as time filler when missionary’s lack appointments or other more effective things to do.
And why can I not get a straight, intelligent answer to any of these questions?
A frustration I share, though not on these so much as other questions. Many Mormons are overly cautious or vague when expounding doctrine, do in part to a fear of being attacked for there beliefs, and also because a lot of Mormon doctrine builds upon other doctrine. This means that some Mormon beliefs don’t make a lot of sense with out an understanding of other related doctrine. When the “deeper” doctrine is conveyed without a grounding in the supporting doctrine, it may seem absurd and lead one to reject the whole of the belief system. It’s kind of like with math, algebra, with its letters in place of numbers, may seem like frustrating nonsense to someone still learning addition and subtraction.
I hope this helps. Let me know any additional questions you may have, or anything I could clear up better that was presented here. I’m not really the pressure converting type, I just enjoying explaining.
Would you be interested in an ongoing dialogue about Mormonism? I have some questions about what you wrote in your posts?
NateDredge,
You wrote that while there is no direct biblical precedent for the hiding up of a sacred records in the earth, the Jewish people of Qumran did hid their copy’s of scripture in caves.
If the BoM is inspired why have we found no evidence anywhere for it? The Dead Sea Scrolls shows evidence for the Holy Bible. Nothing of a single page coming from the BoM. has ever been discovered. No evidence of the battles or the people. Not a single artifact. Mormons claim that plain and precious truths have been lost. Yet there’s absolutely zero evidence that any LDS works were ever removed from the Bible.
Thank you for some well-thought out answers Nate. I would love to continue further dialogue with you, and perhaps after my busy weekend is over, we can continue…
I would be delighted to engage in a polite, civil, and friendly discussion with you. I was once a LDS missionary, and because of and since that time I have learned much about how to better dialogue with those of other faiths. Please feel free to email me.
James
I am told that a leader of the Church once said that if the Church were not true, the youthfulness of the missionaries would have destroyed it long ago. I believe that God has his hand in our missionary work (I was a missionary once), but it doesn’t mean we always get it right.
We are not perfect, but I am glad that you have also had good experiences with our favorite representatives. Hopefully your experiences will prove instructive in our future efforts to improve our quality of teaching and fellowshipping and our humble attempt to bring a greater knowledge of Jesus Christ’s gospel to the world.
I admire your open mind and open door.
These may be hard questions for the missionaries you encountered, but I hope they would be easy questions for Mormons with a bit more experience (and who don’t have an agenda). I’m LDS and could easily answer your questions, mostly in a similar vein to NateDredge above. However, there are much more difficult questions you could ask that I couldn’t answer, which pose great difficulty to my faith.
While I admire the time and effort the Mormons put into spreading their word, I can tell you that my last 3 experiences with them have been less than acceptable.
2 years ago, while opening Christmas presents with my children, I received a knock on my door. 2 Mormon ladies were standing there asking me if they could share a word with me. I replied that “I am celebrating the birth of my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ”. They asked me if I’d read the book of Mormon, I told them no and that I simply didn’t have time for this discussion on Christmas day. They continued to push me and eventually, I was forced to close the door on them as I wished them a Merry Christmas.
Last year, while attempting to sell my house (which was vacant), I went over there to make sure toilet lids were closed, etc… I found literature from LSD scattered throughout. I am a Christian, not a Mormon and did not appreciate the information being left in the home I was trying to sell. I was supposed to rid my home of any “personal” effects and yet someone else had left theirs.
After I sold my home and moved in with my Mom, she heard a very loud banging on the door at about 8:30pm. When my Mom opened the door, there were 2 Mormons there. She said one smelled like he’d just left the bar. She told them that she thought it was a bit late to be knocking door to door so loudly and was told “God told us to knock on doors until 9pm”. She told them that God apparently didn’t tell them that He didn’t mean her house and closed the door on them.
IF there were true golden tablets, why aren’t there any pictures to prove so? Wouldn’t these pictures give some credence to the Mormon faith? There are many, many accounts of Jesus from different cultures and religions – including Islam! While we don’t have any physical pictures, unless you believe in the Shroud of Turin, we do have numerous accounts of his physical existence. The Mormon tablets are allegedly housed somewhere – why not make them public?
I am proud to be a Christian and don’t hesitate to share my faith. I do not however knock on doors at nearly 9pm smelling like booze, nor would I go to a Jewish home during Passover. To me, actions such as these are simply disrespectful and don’t truly spread the word you’re attemting to share.
Mormons definately are not Christians
… but where is the civil discourse that was encouraged at the end of this post?
Dr. Headly (I believe that is your name- I apologize I’m just not sure),
I really respect your civility towards the missionaries. I agree with most of the posts given. I served my mission in Vallejo, CA and I experienced a lot of hate and mistreatment because I was LDS saying false things about us. Many times throughout the day it was hard to stay non defensive and I think that is what you experienced with these missionaries unfortunately. I promise it was no disrespect to you but just a reaction to what they have been through. I think Nate answered your questions beautifully. There is much much more that can be added. I also agree that sometimes its hard to answer certain questions unless other doctrine is explained first. I have been in the church for 20 years and I still learn a ton. Really… once you get that testimony and that knowledge you can take a step back and look at the big picture and go “Wow! This really does make perfect sense!” I hope you continue to at least explore our faith. I really admire your good civil discourse and admire you for standing up to those who don’t practice it both mormons and non mormons alike. I have found that anti-mormons are hard to discuss with and thats why this conversation is a lot easier with you. If you have any questions or want to talk with me I would be very happy. I don’t know a ton but I enjoy the talk of faith by sincere questioners. Thanks!
I would like you to watch this very short video. The title may sound “combative,” but it’s not. It references Mormon and Muslim religions as well. Check it out:
By what you said, you are delusional to think there is no evidence of the Christian faith, Jesus, resurection and his life and teachings. The reason you saying these things is that you probablly never read the Bible, nor studied its history and evidence. Most people like yourself are always able to talk but when a big problem occurs in your life you realize that there is no one to help you execpt Jesus, Our Lord. There are no athiest in fox holes, with cancer, childs death, car wrecks etc. Your eyes will be opened on day because I will pray to our Lord for your salvation and forgiveness. When this happens maybe you can be more productive with your new views.
Ralph, I agree with your last post.The problem with Atheists, like those who put up these U Tube videos, is that they refuse to submit to something higher than themselves. They know nothing about humility. They want to rule their own destiny and answer to no one for it. Therefore, we Christians are a threat to them. An atheist’s tombstone should aptly read: WAS an atheist. There are no atheists in hell!
@ Scott: I watched it with an open mind, and found it to be very combative. to assume that anyone whoa believes in a higher power to be delusional and completely incapable of irrational thought is highly insulting. the statistics that are used are highly bloated and exaggerated, and there was no proof given against Christianity outside of operating from the assumption that supernatual happenings (immaculate conception, miracles, resurrection) are fairy tales and impossible. miraculous physical healings through the power of prayer are not only possible, but i have borne witness to their happening.
while the presentation in the presentation may not be intended as harsh, it is indeed that which it claims not to be. it assumes we who believe are idiots who cannot rub two brain cells together to form a rational thought, and it assumes that a belief in life after death devalues human life. not true at all. if anything, Scripture places immense value on human life, with stiff penalties for devaluing it (the death penalty, for instance).
while i appreciate your apparent concern for my rationality and sanity, i fear that i will have to pass on being healed of my apparent delusion. there is just not enough evidence given to convince me to turn away…
Dr. Headly,
I came across this site today. Since the date is so old, I am not sure if you are still involved in your quest for more knowledge about the church. As a member of the LDS church, I would be happy to engage in a civil dialogue with you, if you are interested. I felt Nate did a fine job above in answering many of your questions, but if you still have concerns, please feel free to email me.
Dr. Headly
I’m not sure if you are still interested in answering any questions about the LDS Church…
I would be glad to give my answers and opinions on whatever concerns you may have.
I will tell you a good way to really know what our Church believes. You could look up the 13 Articles of Faith. They are pretty precise and simply written for others to understand what our core beliefs are.
I would also like to repeat a saying you may or may not be familiar with… You can’t judge the Church by its Members… an answer that most poeple are not very content with.. I still think it is a good one.
I am by no means perfect nor do I have an answer to every question. Some of my questions have taken years to find any answers to. And most are still unanswered. I guess that’s why they call it Faith.
I have a great respect for All Faiths. And I would love to better understand others’ Religious Beliefs as well.
Hope this helps you in some way to want to speak to more “Mormons” about any concerns. (including future Missionaries) Don’t let a few bad experiences spoil any meaningful discussions.
I don’t think the problem is ‘God’ , ‘Creator’, Dogmas, religions. The problem is trying to define the undefinable. Then trying to get others with the same limited quantifiers to swallow it.
What an interesting discussion. I echo those who ask for understanding for our young missionaries. My son left last week to serve for 2 years in Michigan. I hope I have taught him good manners and the rules of civility.
Your questions are very thoughtful. Nate provided insightful answers to some tough questions. I would like to add a bit to his explanations.
•Scripture (from the Bible) was all written by humans under the inspiration of God. Why would God write Scripture on gold tablets to be merely found by a human? There is no precedent for it anywhere in Scripture, save for the giving of the 10 Commandments to Moses.
As Nate said, The Book of Mormon was written by prophets, humans directed by inspiration from God, just as in the Bible. Being an all-knowing God, He knew that after the crucifixtion of Christ, and the slaying of all Christ’s apostles, the truth of the gospel would be open to change as different groups tweaked doctrine according to their needs. Many of Paul’s epistles show him working to combat this very problem. Therefore, before Jerusalem was destroyed in the time of Jeremiah, a contemporary prophet was commanded to flee with his family and God commanded them to take a copy of the brass plates with them (a record of the books of the Old Testament) so His laws would be preserved. This people was guided to a new land where they continued to practice the Law of Moses in anticipation of the coming of Christ. For 1000 years their prophets recorded God’s word, handing the writings from prophet to prophet, until these writings were hidden in a vault by one last righteous man as he watched his people destroy themselves with extreme wickedness. There is great wisdom in this, as God knew that the Bible and Christ’s original doctrine would subjected to argument, change, and reinterpretation. Basic Christian doctrine (that stems from the middle ages) was voted on over and over again until a compromise was reached at the Council of Nycea. Frankly, I think it is one of God’s greatest miracles that the Bible has survived so many revisions, translations, and reinterpretations largely intact. It is a divine book of scripture, Holy beyond measure, despite human error. Still, before Christ’s coming in the last days, God needed to reestablish His church, untainted and pure, as in the days of the Savior. For this reason, the record found on the gold plates is a companion piece to the Bible. It clarifies doctrines that were changed over the centuries and brings back things that were lost. But even moreso, the Book of Mormon testifies to the truthfulness of the Bible, by reiterating its greatest teachings. It testifies of Jesus Christ and His mission boldly and profoundly.
•Jesus came as a Jew to the world. His ministry was first to the Jews, then to the Gentiles, so why would He appear centuries after His death and resurrection on American shores as a White Man to the Native Americans? This would have been the second coming, and would dictate a third coming which is not pointed to anywhere in Scripture.
Nate addressed this clearly. This appearance was no different than the Savior appearing to His apostles or at the Supper at Emaus. In John 10:16 Christ says: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. He was visiting another branch of His people.
•Why would God go outside His character to give man revelation, then take it away? The Ark of the Covenant was brought up in this answer, but the Ark was not taken back by God directly. Jesus came and was taken away, yes, but He had a very specific mission that He accomplished before leaving.
I assume you are speaking of our belief in an Apostasy, a time when God ceased to communicate with prophets on the earth. God gives revelation to those who covenant with Him to receive it, but those covenenants were lost soon after Christ’s death. When the apostles and prophets were slain, there was no more Priesthood authority left on the earth. Christ ordained these men to His priesthood, giving them authority to act for Him on the earth, but none were ordained to take their place. For this reason, His communication to the church stopped. A time of apostasy ensued. I don’t believe all revelation stopped, for there are countless instances throughout these 1700 years
of individuals writing and speaking with great inspiration. But as far as Christianity as an organized, authorized representative of God’s word, His communication ended with the loss of the Priesthood around 70 ad. It is interesting to note that there were many great Christian leaders before the time of Joseph Smith who wrote of a longing for a restoration of Christ’s church as it originally was, including Martin Luther.
•Jesus came to complete the law, and fulfilled the roles of Prophet, Priest and King. These 3 roles were completed in His person. The gift of prophecy is still active, but the role is not. There is only one King. The priesthood is now shared by all believers. And the role of prophet itself was not filled by one man for the world at a time. There were typically more than one active, so why does the LDS follow only have one prophet, and are you trying to win me to Christ or to this prophet?
As Nate explained, there are many ordained to the office of prophet, seer and revelator for God here on the earth. In addition, everyone who keeps God’s law has the right to personal revelation. I have received this often in my own life. I would ask you my own question about the priesthood. You say that all share the priesthood now, but I know of nowhere in the Bible that this doctrine can be found. Why do you believe all people share the priesthood now? Christ ordained His apostles with the priesthood, using His own priesthood power to do so. This is the example He set in the Bible, so this is why we exercise priesthood the way we do. The priesthood is the authority to act for God here on the earth. I don’t believe God would just give that to everyone without an ordinance, or a committment. Just as Christ ordained Peter, our men are ordained by one who has that authority.
•Probably my favorite: If my faith would be non-existent if you could show me these gold tablets the Book of Mormon was written on, why are you making the argument that Jesus came to American shores to prove Himself to the people here, and showed Himself to 1st Century Middle East. Where is their faith as a result then, based upon your argument to avoid my question?
Christ didn’t come to prove Himself to His people in the Americas. Before He appeared to them, the earth was wracked with a series of great calamities, earthquakes, floods, fires, and hurricanes which destroyed those who were wicked. Those left behind were the believers–they already had faith. In fact, they had suffered great persecution for many years, and stayed strong, testifying of the coming of Christ. He showed them the prints in his hands and feet to affirm their faith, to reward them with knowledge after the trial of their faith. Then he challenged them to go forth and testify of His role as Savior and Redeemer. Even at that, it only took 2 generations for many to forget. Testimony doesn’t come from signs, it comes from an everyday committment to remember God in all we do. When we do that, the Holy Ghost testifies to us of all truth.
•Is this type of mission work really effective at all?
Nate addressed this well.
•And why can I not get a straight, intelligent answer to any of these questions?
Many of our faith don’t know the straight answers themselves. But they are working to find out. I’m sure you have many in your congregation who believe in Christ but aren’t interested in studying the doctrine to the degree they should, or haven’t had the time to learn it well. Does that make them substandard Christians? The LDS people are admonished to study daily and pray for knowledge and understanding, but many don’t. Conversely, many do, but are still learning. I gain a deeper understanding of the gospel every day, not that there are deep, mysterious things to know, but simply that my life experience affords me increasing wisdom as I rely on the Lord. Sometimes I fall short, sometimes I move ahead, but because of the Atonement, that great gift of repentance and grace, I can alwalys get back on track. My understanding of Him and His gospel grows throughout my life. I couldn’t have answered your questions 10 years ago. 10 years from now, I could probably answer them better. I think people explain to the best of their ability, but despite their lack of eloquence, have an unyielding faith in Christ.
I hope these answers were clear. Thank you for fostering this discussion.
Thank you for your thoughtful answers Becky. Just to address a couple smaller points for clarification purposes.
When I speak of God removing His revelation, I am not speaking of revelation as a whole. I am speaking specifically about the tablets upon which the Book of Mormon was written on (in a language that does not seem to exist anywhere outside of the Book of Mormon). It does not make sense for God to give specific revelation for a limited time and remove it like He is claimed to do with the tablets. Nate argues that the same thing happened with the Ark of the Covenant, but that is remarkably different. Though it was placed in the Holy of Holies, there were still a select few Jews who could interact with it, and the rest were assured that it was still there, not a translation that the Priests made. It’s ultimate disappearance was not at God’s hands (directly, anyway).
And for your last thought, no. Not knowing your Scripture does not make one a substandard Christian… or does it, since it is one of the means of drawing closer to God. But it does the church more harm than good to send out such uninformed members as missionaries. It does not bode well when the people they are visiting know more from a cursory reading of the Book of Mormon than the people who are trying to give it away know.
I agree that we are continually growing, and there is merit in sharing your faith right out of the gate, but a missionary really should be able to answer some of those basic questions about their own faith without having to say “That’s the third visit.”
One of the things Christians do not have to do is work and find out the answers. God has given us what we need to know in His word, the Holy Bible. What He has chosen to reveal is in there. I agree that mormon missionaries are really not qualified to defend their faith, much less teach it. Based on my own experiences, they cared more about getting me baptized than openly sharing the beliefs of the lds faith.
In response to Nate Dredge…. It has been proven through DNA that the Native Americans that the book of mormon talk about were NOT of Jewish descent.
The one qeustion I can never get answered is, if mormons are Christian, then why do you believe in 3 Gods? – The Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost (Spirit)?
Isn’t the first comandment the most important?
just a thought “The Truth”, the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) is a belief held by Christianity, and states that it is not three separate gods, but one God while being three. Almost impossibly to explain in our limited vocabulary as humans, but it is not a belief in three separate entities.
thanks for commenting!
In the short way of describeing it , the trinity can be ,discribed like marrage, More than one seperate entity acting with other entitys in perfect unity makeing them one in being and pourpus (no i don’t wanna hear from the spelling and gramar NAZI’s, Such as a Man and his Wife.
Jesus, being fully God, knows all things. But because he was also fully man when he was here on earth, I believe he voluntarily gave up his omniscience because he lived in subjection to the Father. Now in heaven, Christ definitely knows the hour of his coming.
Dr. Headly,
I am Catholic. I believe in the Trinty.
Dr. Headly,
I am very happy to have found your blog about your experience. I grew up in the mormon church, but as of three years ago I stopped going. I honestly don’t believe in anything the church says. And in my own experiences, I believe, that LDS missionaries are sent out to Solicit the mormon church. They’ll knock on your door, or run you down, trying to sell you the mormon church. I call it soliciting because if you join you have to pay to be there. If you don’t pay your monthly 10% you will not be blessed or receive any “revelation”. I find the church to be unfair and untrue. I’ve had a mormon tell me that I’m going to hell because I don’t go to church and don’t follow the rule that the prophet gives. For a long time I thought I was following Gods rules, but we’re following the rules of the prophet who claims to speak to God. But….. but.. some odd time before Gordon B Hinkly (i think that’s how you spell his name) came out and actually said that he has never spoken to God. Sooooo… I’m not really sure where they are getting their information.
I’ve also come across a few missionaries with large sticks up their butts. If you don’t agree or believe a thing they say, they won’t like you. My mother is the same way, unfortunately. If my mother had never joined the church…… I would not have to live my life having people tell me that I’m going to hell.
Thanks for your thoughts Adrianna. I actually had one Mormon missionary call me stupid and hell-bound (I am streamlining his rant a little bit) because I am a Youth Pastor at a Methodist church. All because I am not in a Mormon church.
Its interesting that a mormon would tell others that they are hell bound when mormons do not believe in hell. They believe in outer darkness which they say is different and only satan, his demons and the son of perdition will be there and perhaps some apostates which are those who have left their church and never repented.
Mormons believe most people go to one of 3 levels of heaven. They also believe that non mormons will be taught the lds gospel after death in spirit prison.
I believe mormons saying that we are going to hell is a recent tactic because we Christians have been telling THEM that!
It could be a response to us. I did find it interesting that those words came out of his mouth. He was quite upset at that point, I am assuming because he was unable to answer some of my simple questions about the Book of Mormon itself, and I assume this was his defense mechanism kicking in.
Dr. Headly
I am a Christian and come from a tiny nation of Kiribati and I do believe in God (the BIBLE’S GOD). Here in Kiribati the main issue here is the gaining popularity LDS members
and since the i read your comment it is very assuring to that the facts, the only true writing (spiritually) is the Bible scriptures.
There is no doubt that what given in it is true, i mean if God gave these (BIBLE) to us, since they also say that the BoM is also of God, he would never double talk about giving us an uncompleted Bible for us to read, if that is the fact, the Bible is a LIE, the writers who wrote it are also LAIRS, the Christ inside is also fictional and lastly GOD IS A LAIR, and you know that it is not TRUE.
What gave us in the BIBLE is more than enough for the salvation of every Christian who believes in it.
They cannot love two master at a single time, they cannot love two books at the same time, it is time that they make up their minds, whom to serve the master of the Bible or the master of BoM?
I support very point, very views and comments you make in this area.
My prayers that gave you the courage to shine light into a crowded mind.
The Bible bless you and keep you always
Tebwebwe Tionatan
thanks so much for your thoughts. love your point about serving two masters.
To think that we al can becomegod’s of our own little planet and populate in images like ourselves is absolutely mindbolling. Joseph Smith and his family were charlatins that had liqour licenses. And defaulted on loans etc. And then we have the Massacre at Mountain Meadows. Don’t even get me going down that road. I was taught to be tolerate of other people opinions. But when faiths and their prophets fortell the end of the earth and miss.Tells me and every other person.NONE OF US KNOWS when this will happen. Only the Lord and Jesus know.And personally I don’t think they’re really pissed off enough yet to cleean house. They are waiting yto see if you able to do it ourselves. I personally believe in the Grace and Love of OUr Father and his only BEGOTTEN SON Jesus Christ. TO quote Ian Anderson He’s not the kind you have to WIND UP on Sundays.
I agree with most of what you say William. However, scripture is clear that only the Father knows. Jesus doesn’t know the day or the hour.
I was under the impression that the ONLY one who knows is the Father, not even the son knows the appointed day or hour for his return.
Sad that it has taken this long for Christians, to catch on that of Mormonism is false. We have allowed this cult to go unchecked and masquerade as just another christian faith for far too long!
@ William J.: You may be thinking of the Jehovah’s Witnesses in regards to foretelling the date of the end of the world. The LDS church has never done so, as far as I know.
@erik: Read about how Emperor Nero treated the early Christians and then comment on keeping something you don’t believe about in check. It is not a christian right to destroy what is not accepted; otherwise, you have more reason to act so in regards to those who follow the Islamic religion then a small religious group that has offended your sense of truth. Islam destroys the divinity of Christ. At the very least, even if you disagree how they go about it, LDS people and doctrine acknowledge the saving power of Christ and His divinity as the son of God.
It is very much a Christian right and duty to expose false doctrines and false teachers.
Some of the Mormons, I have met and befriended depict some attributes that show following Jesus Christ’s footsteps. They have been gunuinely helpful in all respects and tending to practice what they preach, giving up that their invaluable time to visit with us etc. The only problem I have is the Book of Mormon. I find it hard to believe that its true as the church wants me to believe. LDS would have been the perfect church for me if only that BOM was not as the church says it is. If anyone can convince me of its authenticity other than to listen to my heart, I will be very grateful. I tried everything but still find the bible as the true and only word of God to us. it has everything i need to know about God and Jesus christ and what I can do to serve my soul. I like most of the people from that church I have met and cherish their desire to do good, their attitude to a prayerful life, etc. Please anyone convince me of the authenticity of the book
You are absolutely correct about the Holy Bible. It is God’s holy word. The BoM is not.
The mormons can be very nice, kind, polite, clean living folks. This is what makes them so attractive to many who are looking for a church or group to belong to. Christians can learn a thing or 2 from this clean lifestyle. However, the mormons have a motive for why they live the way they do. Theirs is a works-based religion. They are trying to progress to godhood through obedience. Christians who are truly born again know that salvation is a free gift. One can never earn it or work for it. Christians come from all walks of life and God can and does use all types of people. Not just those who live a clean lifestyle. Look at Moses and David, a murderer and adulterer. God isn’t looking for perfect people as that’s impossible. He looks for an open, receptive heart. Mormons, on the other hand, strive for perfection as mormon males hope to become gods of their own planet.
You already know the Holy Bible is the word of God. The fact that you are torn and unsure about the BoM is because it is not inspired. It is not of God, but of man.
I pray you will find a bible believing church where Jesus Christ is LORD. Remeber, it isn’t what’s on the outside that counts, but the heart. In my church we have all kinds of people who have all kinds of problems and messed up lives. But they are saved and they love the Lord. We are all works in progress.
Thesword7,
Many thanks for this. I found the BoM and the other supporting literature dry, uninspiring and somewhat a total lie. I have been doing some basic research to just establish the names of places tribes mentioned in their literature when the literature was supposedly written etc and I ambn not going anywhere. Most of the places mentioned in both the new and old testament of the bible can still be identified today i.e. Egypt, Ethiopia, Middle East-Syria, Roman empire etc I cannot in anyway doubt these historical records. I have been asked to pray so as to get an understanding that the BoM is true but I do not feel anything and never think will do. Infact just reading the book, I feel something amiss. Rituals at their temples are scary to say the least.
However their work based approach though for the wrong reasons of becoming God is a desirable attrribute that if only bible based churches can do, the world will be a better place. Their emphasis on the importance of family units, loving your neighbour, closely linked networks, being there for one another, and having a prayerful life are very attractive ideals to me. I think life is all about that. I would want to do likewise and wish many from the bible based churches would do. These good attributes many be grounded on that literature that i do not find authentic but i am not going to take chances to be part of the group in terms of my membership. i will stick to my bible. I find solace, hope, comfort and joy from the bible. It is the only true word of God to us.
Hi Rodie, You already have the Truth and this helps you to discern true teachings from heresies. This is how Christians recognize a fasle religion. When something doesn’t set right with you and you feel troubled, that’s the Holy Spirit. Heed that and flee. Flee Mormonism. The Bible talks about white-washed tombs. Mormons may be clean and appear spiritual, but they are spiritually dead.
Hi Sword7. Many thanks for your reassurance. I had made many friends from there and almost went into the pit. I am coming out of it now. I will still be friends with them but I will stay with the truth and stick to my bible based church. Mormonism is just not for me. I do not feel what many of them say feel and hear. I love my God and Jesus as the bible teaches me. If any one of them is reading this, I challenge them to be really honest with themselves and confirm that they really feel and hear that the BoM is true. How do they hear the voice? how does it come? Do they dream about it or it comes the Joseph Smith’s way. They need to be honest and not to live a lie. It didnot happen to me and not sure it happened to any one of them. Is it not a question of joining the bandwagon? Once again many thanks for this Sword7
Hi Rodie, the Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit when we are born again. This is how you know when something is of God or not. You have enough Truth to know if a teaching is true or false.The Holy Spirit brings such truths to our rememberance. If one is truly saved, Jesus said that nothing and no one can snatch that person out of his hand. He won’t allow you to join a cult, certainly not forever. Paul said of those who left the faith, that they had gone out from us. If they were truly one of us, they never would have left.
Hi Thesword7
I agree with you more than 100%. I have been feeling it, the pressure to become a member has been too much but after going through their teachings and just merely adding 2 and 2, the answer has not been coming out to be 4 and finally decided to call it quits. That BoM is a manufactured lie and its really worrying to see all those pople being swept away just like that. Your contributions have confirmed my feeling s. My saviour would not allow me to join this cult indeed. I will still love them and be friends but will have nothing to do with their beliefs
Seventeen Points of the True Church
1. Christ organized the church. Eph. 4:11-14
2. The true church must bear the name of Christ. Eph. 5:23
3. The true church must have the same foundation of Apostles and Prophets. Eph. 2:19-20
4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ’s church. Eph. 4:11-14
5. The true church must claim divine authority. Hebrews 5:4-10
6. The true church must have no paid ministry. Isaiah 45:13, 1 Peter 5:2
7. The true church must baptize by immersion. Matthew 3:13-16
8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on the hands. Acts 8:14-17
9. Church must practice divine healing. Mark 3:14-15
10. True church must teach that God and Jesus are two separate individuals. John 17:11, John 20:17
11. True church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone. Luke 24:36-39, Acts 1:9-11
12. The officers must be called of God. Hebrew 5:4, Exodus 28:1, Exodus 40:13-16
13. True church must claim revelation from God. Amos 3:7
14. True church must be a missionary church. Matthew 28:19-20
15. True church must be a restored church. Acts 3:19-20
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead. 1 Cor. 15:16 and 29
17. By their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 17:20
it’s a nice list. it would be nicer if it were not full of flawed proof-texting.
Ya brother the bible is completely false.
i do not share your thoughts stirling. in fact, i hold the complete opposite to be true. my point was that the list is full of passages that were taken out of context and are being used to say what they were not intended to say.
Eph. 5:23 does NOT say that Christ’s name should be part of the name of one’s church. It SAYS Christ is the head of the church. The lds church uses this as a ploy to try and convince others that they are a genuine Christian faith.
They are NOT.
Does no one else realize what happened here? Think about the offense and grief that you felt in response to Scott’s video, and your willingness to defend believers in God, and then look at your quickness to collectively assault a belief that you claim not to understand. You find fault in the works lifestyle and at the same time acknowledge that it makes the world more pleasant. Not only does the collective devotion to living the words of Christ make the world more pleasant for all but it also sets a foundation for a life following the will of God. Maybe if you spend half as much time as these honorable and open-minded men who took their time to answer the questions that you posed spend on working, striving to DO the words of Christ so that they can have a foundation of rock so that when the storms of life, whatever form they may be when they strike, whether it be temporal hardships or simply temptations of finding a sick satisfaction in disproving ones heartfelt faith and devotion to live as the holy spirit directs, maybe if you had this ethic you might feel a little stir in your heart telling you that it is WRONG to behave that way. Bigotry never was and never is the plan. Did Jesus condemn the Samaritans for their beliefs? He certainly did not and when his eager disciples wished to call fire from heaven on those that would not accept them they were rebuked. How about instead of calling down the bigamous fires of slander on a loving group of people you move on and see what good you can do in the world. What i saw here was ravenous wolves.
I’m 17 and I am a Mormon. I’ve read it all and heard it all, you could spend a lifetime giving me reasons why I am wrong in my beliefs but why in the world would you think that you know something we don’t about our religion? Think about this, if there are so many things that “disprove” it how can we have such devout belief, even after knowing all of these things? (And it isn’t just a few people, it is 14 million). Its a pretty complicated thought and it comes down to a few possibilities. 1. We are delusional. Stating this is the case is denying a massive group of people mental capacity. Think about how you felt when Scott posted that video. 2. We understand it in a way that you don’t 3. We have felt numerous reassurances throughout our heartfelt search that the BoM is legitimate so we can use this assurance to combat anything that would challenge our fate. 2. and 3. are the answers. I know it and you won’t convince the witness(me) otherwise. Go ahead and convince yourself otherwise though, power to ya.
All of this said, I recognize that all that has been said that offended me is a product of the zeal that you feel as a result of the joy that Christ has brought into your lives and I certainly appreciate it to a certain degree but when it is channeled into destroying faith it is the work of the devil. I really appreciated the open-minded inquiry and I found your questions rather easy to answer. Oh, and, if it doesn’t make sense then you don’t understand it. Your initial conclusions are often wrong…
Thank you for your thoughts Landon. I can assure you that I do indeed spend much time devoted to following in God’s footsteps (much more time than I spend in deconstructing Mormonism), including many “good works.” Scripture teaches clearly that works flow out of a regenerate heart. The argument that good works make the world a better place does not stand in contradiction with a condemnation of a works-based faith. My “quickness to “collectively assault a belief that i claim not to understand” is because that belief claims to be the only way to God and misuses Scripture to make itself sound right. I speak out just as boldly against branches of the Christian church that teach a works-based salvation, or those that teach universalism. If our works could save us and grant us heaven, then Jesus’ work on the cross was unnecessary, and that is not what Scripture teaches. I would also like to point out that in John 4 when Jesus speaks with the Samaritan woman, He does indeed point out that the Samaritans are incorrect in their beliefs. He is not mean, but He is blunt and firm with her.
None of my questioning of the Mormon faith here is the work of the devil, and I find it quite arrogant to write anyone off who is not satisfied by pat answers to be people who simply “don’t get it.” That type of an attitude shuts down discussion and real dialogue, which is what I was seeking when I first wrote this post over 4 years ago. I find no “sick satisfaction in disproving one’s heartfelt faith and devotion to live as the holy spirit directs.” Quite the opposite is true. My heart breaks for those in this world who are lost, confused and follow after other smaller gods and incorrect depictions of Yahweh.
George A. Smith, a former Mormon leader said this: “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”
Yet, when non Mormons examine and call out unscriptual beliefs that the Mormon church teaches, we are attacked and accused of doing the works of satan.
Dr. Headly,
I pray God opens your mouth to continue teaching and preaching in wonderfully civil atmospheres where His Spirit can prick and change the hearts of those you come in contact with, be they LDS or any other false doctrine. I encourage you to continue to ready yourself, as you most likely will continue to experience people of opposing faiths. To all the LDS’ from this post, if your Jesus was real, how is it true Christians fight for our rights all over the world with bloodshed for our stand, and your doctrine is considered unoffensive.
Matthew 5:10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Love the people, detest the sin! Preach on brother! 😀
And how is it that you “know” that the mormon church is false? you challenge our belief in the promptings of the Holy Spirit and yet you say that it is through the Spirit that we are false. Really? I am willing to bet that half of the christians here belong to different churches. Now, I may not be very old at 18 but I do know enough to see that the devil has run freely in the world for a long time. Just take a drive around your town and see how many different churches there are. And in nearly every one, at least that i have seen, they claim tolerance and encourage to live a Christ like life, and then slander and attack my church. For 18 years i have attended the LDS church and never once have I heard anyone of my faith attack any other religion.
People claim that they have read and prayed about the Book of Mormon and never have felt anything. But at the end of the book, in Moroni 10:3-5 it says
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your chearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
Ponder it in your hearts. Ask with a SINCERE heart, with REAL intent, he will manifest the truth unto you. Just look at those three verses. Its no wonder that you cannot feel the truth when you are so sure that it is all lies. But how can you think that? How can you believe that Joseph Smith, a man with a fourth grade education, wrote the Book of Mormon? The only possible way he could do that and have so much of its chronology flow in sync with the bible is if he had been a master scholar and studied the bible for a very large portion of his life. That alone proves that he didnt just make it up. And if he didnt make it up, and there are 14 million people who believe it to be true, where did it come from? Why is it so impossible that God led a man to find the plates, ANOTHER record of Christ, one to work TOGETHER with the Bible? Why would a christian of any sort not want more knowledge of our savior, Jesus Christ? And one thing thatsaddens me very much, how can a christian claim that the LDS church is not christian? The very definition of a christian is someone who believes that Christ is the Savior and died for our sins so that we could be saved.
so the LDS faith believes in a different Heaven, so what? So we have differences in what we believe, so what? We dont attack other churches, and we dont believe that someone is going to hell or outer darkness just because they believe something different. We dont give sermons against other churches, and we don’t claim other churches to be of the devil. We believe that God loves all of his children, and that He wants us to be happy and to bring glory to him.
And yet, so many people attack my church because of bad experiences they have had. Now some of them, like with doctor Headly, they have had experiences that were bad because of the members of the LDS church were not acting in the way that they should have, that is by not being open and Christ like. But then we have the other people. The ones who’s hearts are hardened to what we say because they believe that God has decided to never again give scripture to men. And if you are about to say or think that you don’t believe that, then shut your mouth and think about it for a moment. If you think that the Book of Mormon is false and is not scripture, but are then going to say that God will eventually give men scripture, you are sadly mistaken in your reasoning. Why can’t He give us more? Why is the Bible the ONLY scripture that he has given us? What kind of person can believe that the Bible is all the scripture we need? we know for a fact that things have been changed and altered, even taken out of the Bible. So how can you think that it is all we need? why would God not give us more scripture, to help us to understand the teachings of the Bible?
Im sorry for the long reply, but i feel strongly about my beliefs and my love of God. I challenge you to answer my questions, and I apologize if my response here seems heated. I am merely trying to shed some light. thank you for the chance to discuss this.
Thanks for your input hirinjay. You are indeed very passionate about your faith and i do respect that.
I do not intend to address all of your thoughts, but one in particular stuck out to me. You ask “Why can’t He give us more? Why is the Bible the ONLY scripture that he has given us? What kind of person can believe that the Bible is all the scripture we need?” I ask you, why is the Bible not enough? You disparage anyone who believes that we do not need more than what has been established for centuries, declaring all Mormons to be superior in the process because they see a need for more Scripture. Now yes, I would love to hear more from God, but to say that we need more in written form is borderline heretical. That statement declares Scripture to be substandard because it is incomplete at best. And from what I understand, while the Bible can be confirmed by numerous outside sources, the Book of Mormon exhibits many errors that could disprove it, especially in the area of archaeology. Why should we accept this extra book as something that is worthy enough to complete Scripture?
Again, thanks for you passionate thoughts.
The Old Testament, which were the Scriptures that Jesus had, were enough for Jesus. He quoted from them often and many times said: “It is written…”
Since the Holy Scriptures were authored by God, the Holy Spirit, we should have a very high regard and respect for it.
It is easy to spot a false religion. Since the Holy Bible was here first, any religion that comes after the Word of God MUST be compared TO the Word of God. Any thing that contradicts what God has already revealed to us, is a FALSE religion. Mormonism has many teachings that that are in complete contradiction with what God has revealed and what Christ Himself taught. Therefore, if w are truly going to call ourselves Christians, we absolutely MUST reject Mormonism.
good thoughts, justoneblogger. Thanks for weighing in.
By the Way, it isn’t just Mormons who believe we have and need more scriptures, Roman Catholics just to name one, believe the same thing. It is very easy to delve into waters of errors when you go beyond what is written. Jesus never did that. He used the scriptures to combat satan and the scribes and pharisees. An “open canon” is a dangerous thing because you lack a sole standard for truth. As Christians we MUST have a standard of truth whereby we can test all things to see if they are of God, man or the devil.
No one is attacking your church or any individual lds. What we are attacking is satan and false teachings.
The book of Mormon does not contradict the Bible. And yes, it is not simple to prove the book through archaeology. Yes, the Old Testament was scripture enough for Jesus. So we don’t need the New Testament because it was after, by your logic. And its pretty obvious that He isn’t going to quote scripture that was written on another continent, dived from Him by the oceans. No one would understand his words or recognize them because they wouldn’t have them themselves.
You say that as Christians we must have a standard of truth whereby we can TEST all things to see if they are of God or of the devil. So why are you so afraid to test it? I refer back to my previous response here, why dont you read the book and test it yourself? compare the teachings that are in it and have an open mind, dont just assume that all things are of the devil. If we think that the Bible is the only scripture that we need and refuse to consider any others, how is God to speak to us? There is no harm in testing for ourselves and trusting in God to let us know the truth.
You say there are MANY teachings that are in contradiction to the Bible. Would you care to give examples? i am interested in your findings and would like to better understand how others view my religion.
Were in the Bible does it say that Christianity must have a closed canon? I have posted a link at the bottom of my reply, i encourage you to read it with an open mind, and to pray to have the Spirit be with you to help see what is true.
@Dr. Headly, what disproves the Book of Mormon? Being unable to find archaeological is not a very good method to disprove it, not in my mind at least. Where things happened is not important, what is important are the teachings of Christ and the gospel that is shared through the book. Can you say with 100% assurance that every single thing in the Holy Bible is correct? and that nothing has ever been cut or taken from it? And because there are things that are missing, yes i am saying that the Bible is INCOMPLETE scripture. That is not heretical, it is a fact. Just look at all of the different versions of it! So much has been changed and taken away from it. Yes there have been small changes to the Book of Mormon but that’s grammatical stuff basically, nothing that diminishes the truth of the gospel of Christ.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_Bible/Open_canon_vs._closed_canon
You both seem to be well educated and intelligent, and i am glad that you have responded in the spirit of discussion. I only ask that you read and think about what you believe and to respond with the same openness and respect as i have. Thank you for both of your responses, i respect you greatly.
The interesting thing i that the BoM agrees with the bible in many places. However, the fact is that Mormonism in many places disagrees with both the Bible AND the BoM. How does any lds reconcile that?
The Bible is not incomplete. Even the apostle Paul said he had taught the Gospel in its entirety. The Bible tells us everything pertaining to salvation. It is found in the blood of Jesus Christ and in nothing else..
The New Testament was after what? Of course we need it. Its the basis for Christianity. Mormonism was founded in the 1800’s which was a long time after the New Testament came to be. Therefore, any church teaching that says there are many gods and man may become a god are to put it lightly: false and to put it in it’s true light: heretical.
@justoneblogger
The New Testament was written after Christ was crucified, so He didn’t teach from it. And i would like to say thank you for proving your ignorance about the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. First, as you are clearly unaware of, we have twelve articles of faith. The very first one states “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”
How does that say we believe in multiple gods? Granted you didn’t say that the Mormon church teaches this, but you inferred it. Secondly, we do not say that man will become god and as such replace Him. We believe that those of us who accept the Atonement of Christ and become perfected through it and repent of our sins daily and obey all of His commandments will become like him. Just like how children grow up and become parents. It is foolish to believe that there is a heaven where we will just sit there and do nothing. if we do not become like unto our Father in heaven, what do we become? What would we do?
We are taught that we will continue to grow with our families and bring glory to God. We will learn and grow and be like him, raising our own families. If you have some scripture saying otherwise, please share it. And how would saying that believing this is heretical? because your church doesn’t teach it?
You say that it is a false doctrine. I say show me the scriptures that denounce it.
@thesword7
Numbers 21:14
Joshua 10:13
2 Samuel 1:18
1 Kings 11:41
1 Chronicles 29:29
2 Chronicles 9:29
2 Chronicles 12:15
2 Chronicles 13:22
2 Chronicles 12:15
2 Chronicles 20:34
2 Chronicles 33:19
2 Chronicles 35:25
1 Corinthians 5:9
Ephesians 3:3
Colossians 4:16
Jude 1:14-15
All are Bible references talking about books that are referred to by the prophets THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE. How can you think that the Bible is a complete book when the very prophets that are spoken of in it say there is more out there? And aside from that even, do you have any idea how many different compilations of the Bible there are? You tell me which one is the true and complete one and i will find five people who say you are wrong and that there version is the correct one. And what teachings of my church are disagree with the teachings in the Bible and BoM? i would very much like to study more on those topics.
Hi hirinjay, I am not ignorant of what the Mormon church teaches as I have family and friends who are former lds. This has led me to do years of research into Mormonism where I discovered many things that the average lay lds isn’t aware of. Although you may believe in God the Father, and Jesus Christ, the Son and the Holy Spirit, what you left out is that the lds church holds to the belief that there are countless numbers of gods and that Heavenly Father is just one among many. That he was once a man and had to progress through obedience in order to become God of this planet. This is not something that is openly taught by missionaries or even to brand new converts to the lds church. It’s not in the BoM, but it is in your works. When we look up the definition of Polygamy, it says the belief in and/OR worship of more than one God. It does NOT say the belief in OR worship of one God. I understand that Mormons worship only one God, however the church teaches a belief in zillions of them on other planets. In the Holy Scriptures, which is inspired, authored by the Holy Spirit, God says there are NO other gods, none before Him and none shall ever come after. He tells us that He knows of NO other gods. Now my question to you is this: If God has a father, would he not know it?
As for “lost” books of the Bible, I have heard Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses make the same claim, yet they cannot prove that any of these books belong in the bible. Just because someone in the scriptures mentioned a book, does not mean it’s inspired, was in the Bible originally and then somehow got lost or removed. There were many books written by people at the time. If you believed that the Holy Scriptures were supernaturally written which means it is of God, from God and watched over by God, then you would treat it as unlike all other books, complete with no missing parts, fully trustworthy without corruption? That’s what it is to be a truly born again Christian.
I understand that the lds church has many teachings not found in the Holy Bible. Therefore, Mormons make the argument that their teachings were probably in these so-called “lost” books. Since the Holy Scriptures were supernaturally written, you either trust it completely or toss it out. There’s no compromising. Here’s another question: If you believe there are missing books, then why didn’t Joseph Smith include those books in his bible, the JST? Do you know for a fact that these other books were inspired, authored by the Holy Spirit? If you don’t then you really have no case to make.
As for the NT coming after the death of Christ, how does that make any difference? The 4 Gospels were based on eyewitness accounts. Did not Jesus say to Peter to feed His sheep? Did not Christ stop Paul on the road to Damascus with the calling to be another apostle to teach His Gospel? These and many other men were martyred for the sake of the Gospel. They gave up their very lives.
There is only ONE God. The Bible has ONE Creator. It is ONE book. It has ONE plan of grace. It is the story of God redeeming His people through the sacrifice and blood of Jesus Christ. Do you really believe that the Creator of the world, God our Heavenly Father, who is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, would allow some of this vital information to be “lost” in any way? Would God leave out the information we need pertaining to salvation and eternal life?
The Holy Scriptures is complete, in order that we might also be “complete, and equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16,17)
Let me ask you one more question: Do you believe that Jesus is another God separate from Heavenly Father? If they were both once men who had progressed to godhood, then isn’t that believing in 2 Gods? This isn’t Christianity, hirinjay
I need to correct an error in my last comment. I typed the word Polygamy when I meant to use the word polytheistic.polytheism means the belief and/or worship of more than one god. It does NOT mean solely the worship of many gods but includes in the definition the belief in more than one God. This defines Mormonism’s teaching in the existence of numerous gods.
Christ was the god of the Old Testament. But we also know that God is his father. So by that you could say that there are two gods. But, we know that Christ is not a god, that he is the son of God. This is getting into deeper doctrine as you stated, and to understand it requires a strong relationship with God so that the Holy Spirit can testify of true things and show you the errors in others. You have brought up some very interesting points, and i intend to study it out and fast to know the truth in this matter soon. Speaking on the multiple gods, that is.
There was no sort of compilation of scripture when Jesus walked the Earth, they had the teachings of prophets in many books and scrolls. The idea, to me, of the Bible being complete will ALL of the knowledge that God has for us is preposterous. Yes, i very strongly believe that our Heavenly Father would allow books and information to be lost. For a time. I also firmly believe that he would prepare a way for the lost knowledge to be returned to us. I believe that the Book of Mormon is a compliment to the Bible through which the information we need to obtain salvation and eternal life is made more clear. The Bible has the information, but it is not in such a way that we can understand without further clarification.
It is my understanding that our Father does not interfere directly with the workings of men because to do so would take away our agency. The whole reason we are here is to exercise our agency to do as we will. Yes the NT was written after Christ died and it is the gospel as according to each author. Yes, it is an inspired work and was authored by God through man. But so were countless other works. Why would the entirety of Gods word be in the Bible? Am i to believe that ALL of the words and teachings of Christ are in this small book? not even taking into account the years before and after his ministry, i am to believe that the entirety of Christs words are recorded in the Bible? that all of the things he taught are in there? Forgive me if i seem flippant, but that is truly foolish and a bit presumptuous i believe. That the words of the greatest man to ever walk on the Earth can be summed up in a few hundred pages is ridiculous.
If the Bible includes letters that were written to different peoples by Paul, how can we say that teachings of other prophets were not important enough to add? I highly doubt that Paul wrote those letters with the intention of them being added into a book of scripture. I don’t mean to say that we can’t learn from the letters, but i am saying that if they can be included why not other teachings that were left out? There are many versions of the Bible. Some include the Apocrypha, some exclude it. The Jewish Tanach, the Jewish bible basically, is what the christian Old Testament is based off of it but has been altered. There are versions where books are missing, there are versions where there are other books added. So which one is the right one? which is the one God wanted for us? Why can’t the Book of Mormon be a compliment to the Bible’s teachings to help us understand what is true and meant?
The JST version was not meant to bring back lost books. It is Joseph Smiths version where he added clarifying notes and translated it through revelation so that it may be better understood. I have never read the JST version, because my church doesn’t hold the copyright and i haven’t found one to read, so i don’t really know much about it, but i do know that it was not written to add whole books back into the Bible. You say i dont have a case to make because i cannot “prove” that the lost books were written with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So why don’t you “prove” that they weren’t?
Its an endless cycle really, you have your beliefs and i have mine, and there is no way to prove one way or the other. The lack of proof does not mean something is false. You have no proof that I am a christian, or that i am a boy, or that i am even 18. But i know it to be true. But because you have no physical proof, i am not a boy? or christian? or 18? You could claim that i am Jewish, a girl, and 5, but you would have no tangible proof, just like i have no way to prove to you what i say. You must act on faith that i am as i say i am. But i could say that i am a member of the LDS church, that i am living my 19th year on Earth, and that i have the body of a male human. both claims are true, but one is more specific. It is more specific because i have added information to improve your understanding. The Book if Mormon does the same thing for the Bible. It adds information so that we can better understand it and know what the true doctrine is so that we can understand it.
Yes i understand that you understood what i said with the first statement but it was what came to me as i wrote so there it is.
It is my understanding that our Father does not interfere directly with the workings of men because to do so would take away our agency. The whole reason we are here is to exercise our agency to do as we will. Yes the NT was written after Christ died and it is the gospel as according to each author. Yes, it is an inspired work and was authored by God through man. But so were countless other works. Why would the entirety of Gods word be in the Bible? Am i to believe that ALL of the words and teachings of Christ are in this small book? not even taking into account the years before and after his ministry, i am to believe that the entirety of Christs words are recorded in the Bible? that all of the things he taught are in there? Forgive me if i seem flippant, but that is truly foolish and a bit presumptuous i believe. That the words of the greatest man to ever walk on the Earth can be summed up in a few hundred pages is ridiculous.
Your definition of born again christian differs mine. To me, it is when one accepts the Atonement in ones life and lives according to the gospel of Christ to the fullest of ones abilities and searches the scriptures and studies them so that one may grow ever closer to Christ and our Heavenly Father. Not someone who accepts the Bible to be complete. go ask any Christian and they will probably tell you that they believe that the Bible is whole and true and that nothing more is needed. So they are all born again?
and now to your final question. First of all, we know that Christ was the God of the Old Testament. So it could be said, that yes there are two gods. I however, don’t believe this. He was acting under the direction and guidance of Heavenly Father. He did not have a body at that point yet. He was acting as a son, following the will of his father and doing what he knew to be right.
Secondly, God is the only God. Of course we both know this, so why state it? because it is true. Again we both know this. So what is my point? Well, we are His children. Are we to remain as children forever? yes. But we will also grow up and have our own families. Now, i dont have any children, nor am i married yet. Your picture says you are a husband, so i assume that you are married. I do not know if you have children, but i also assume you would like to have children if you dont already. I also assume that you would want said children to grow up and have their own families. I also assume that you would want the best for them, and for them to grow up loving you and trying to be good like you. granted this is all assumption, but please bear with me for one last thing.
If the family is such an important thing to us, and Heavenly Father has taken the title of “Father”, wouldn’t it be logical to assume that he too values the family unit? So if he takes upon himself the title and role of a father, it makes sense to think that he wants us to grow up to be like Him. So it also causes one to think that He too grew up to be like His father. Or, He is the very first God and we are his children and will then grow up to be like him and have our own families. So if we become like Him and have our own children, wouldn’t it make sense that we would want our children to follow us, and not our our Father? We would be living just as good and righteous as our Father and so they would bring glory to Him by following us, and in essence following Him. We try to emulate our parents and be good, but we dont want our children to copy our parents, we want them to copy us. Not because we think our parents did a bad job, but because it is our way to honor them by raising our children right, just as they raised us.
I apologize for any scrambledness in what i said here, and i am sorry for the long reply but i wanted to answer all of your questions and statements. I value your comment greatly, and you have helped me to think more clearly about things. I respect you as a man and as a christian and i hope you have peace in your life.
One of the problems with Mormonism is their lack of a sole standard for truth with which they test all things. Mormons will claim some of their beliefs were once in the bible and then at some point unscrupulous mean deleted them. Or they will say a belief was taught by a former prophet although it may no longer be taught today. It is very difficult to understand how if a prophet who is supposed to speak for God can teach something and then in later years it’s thrown out. This is the reason why the Mormon church will not declare many of their teachings as doctrine, they won’t make it official.
How very different this is compared to the Christian who has the bible as the source for truth. We Christians have no problem with looking up the answers through Scriptures.
Very true, gina.
Also, God said He alone is God, there are no others. I believe Him! I certainly will not believe someone who comes along and says: Hey, guess what? There are zillions of gods and God the Father was once a man like us! That is not Christianity. Jesus Never taught it. Nor did His apostles.
I pray that every Mormon who reads this will come to saving Faith and make Christ alone their Lord and Savior.
Mormons believe they are gods in embryo. Christians know, according to what God has revealed in the Scriptures, that we are ALL sinners and the wages of sin is death. Everyone breaks the 10 Commandments. We have all violated God’s laws and the consequences are serious. The only way to forgiveness and eternal salvation is through the finished blood atonement of God the Son at Calvary’s Cross. A church name is meaningless. Anybody can call themselves anything. If you haven’t come to acknowledge that you are a lost sinner and that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life, then you are not spiritually born-again, but eternally lost. The bible tells us that narrow is the gate to heaven and FEW will find it, but broad and WIDE is the gate to hell and many are headed there. At the Judgment, God isn’t going to ask what church you belonged to or how many good deeds you performed. He will ask if you trusted in the Son alone. Sadly, most Mormons have not dealt with their sin problem. They are not placing their trust in the Only One who offers the free gift of salvation.
It saddens me greatly at how hard the hearts of people can be. Especially those we profess their love for Christ and his gospel. Look into the history of your own churches, just see what dirt you can dig up. Im not going to try doing it for you because i believe what Jesus taught when he said “love one another as thou lovest me.” I have only tried to explain things, but you refuse to think about the questions i have asked in previous comments, only answering the ones you can attack. Is that the way the Lord would have us discuss? I have tried to be civil and share what I know and not attack you. I am a member of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of latter-day Saints. I believe in Christ and He IS my savior. I have faith that I will enter into the celestial kingdom of God and behold His great glory. I also believe that those who claim to be christian but attack the christian beliefs of a different denomination will never behold the full glory of our Heavenly Father. If this is your idea of christian, attacking another church because of obscure doctrine you dont understand, then i weep for the world. I pray that someday you learn and understand the errors of your hardened hearts and come unto the fullness of the Gospel of Christ. I did not say that there are more Gods. He is our one and true God.
I testify to you that I know that Christ is pleased with how I have tried to live His gospel and done my best to emulate Him. I know that someday we will meet in the spirit world, and that you will then understand how wrong you have been to attack something that you refuse to truly understand. But I do not blame you, i blame the devil and the grip he has on the world. I truly feel sorry for you, for you cannot open your eyes and see the truth when it sits in front of you.
So i invite you to continue your attacks, to belittle my faith. To detest a religion because of little know truths or obscure doctrine. To continue twisting words and logic to fit the needs of the devil. I invite you to attack me however you will, because I know in my heart that if you know the truth you would not fight against god in such a way. I understand the power Satan has and how he has needled his way into so many peoples lives. Continue to think and say that the devil has power over me, clearly, or else i would denounce my faith and join the “real” Christianity. But think on this. Contention is of the devil. i have tried to be civil and have not attacked you. You continue to contend against me, no longer discussing but now attacking what i say. I am sorry that you feel this way.
hirinjay, you will never know the sweat and tears that Christians go through when praying for and witnessing to others who are eternally lost. The Holy Bible says we Must be born again or we cannot see the kingdom of God. Christ taught this. No church is perfect because we are all sinners and not perfect, but it isn’t a church that saves us. It’s the blood of Christ alone. Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission (forgiveness) of sins.(Heb. 9:22) Without a personal relationship with Him, He will never be one’s Savior. Who did Thomas finally grasp Jesus really was? GOD! Trying to obey 100.s of commandments and church rules and rituals is not the way to everlasting life. Trusting in the sacrificial atoning work of Christ alone is.
I see that this is becoming a debate and I am not interested in back and forth bantering. I wish you well and pray you will have a personal encounter with the Biblical Christ and trust Him alone for your salvation.
John 1: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God… All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”. This Jesus Christ is God, not our brother or the brother of the devil. He created you and me.He is worthy of our worship. In the end every knee shall bow and confess Him as LORD.
My experience with missionaries has been that they are polite; but their arguments have tended towards scripted and superficial. I think it is a function of their youth. They are persistent and in my case have been slow to recognize that I am an unlikely convert.
I have had a lot of experience with mormon missionaries. They are polite up to a point. If you challenge them, ask hard questions or try to reason with them from the Scriptures, they turn suspicious and ask what your agenda is. I have had more than a few walk out quickly and a couple of mormon elders have told me that I have nothing to teach them.That they are there to teach me! That they alone have all the truth and I only have partial truth because I believe the canon is closed. There is nothing more dangerous than having an unteachable spirit.
Loved these Qs!! I want more! Lol